Oppo, I have a problem

"TheRealBicycleBuck" (therealbicyclebuck) 07/28/2018 at 10:33 • Filed to: None

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The aircraft I love is one I can’t fly (yet).

This, my friends, is a Beechcraft Bonanza. Its one outstanding feature that separates it from others in its class is the V tail. I think it looks amazing.

Why can’t I fly it? This plane has several features that put it out of my reach for now. The retractable gear and adjustable prop put it into the Complex classification which new pilots aren’t qualified  to fly . Also, the engine in later models put it into the High Performance category. Just like you wouldn’t hand the keys to a Corvette to a newly-licensed driver, the FAA has deemed the 200+ hp engine in this plane too much for beginning pilots. But boy do I want one!

Although the FAA doesn’t proscribe a set number of hours before getting the logbook endorsement for high-performance and complex planes, they do require additional instruction. I’m just hoping I can get through the required hours for my pilot certificate quickly so I can move up to something that can really move!

How can you not love this plane? It is, after all, “ !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ”

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 10:41

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Ah yes, the “doctor killer”, pretty plane.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 10:53

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They’re pretty airplanes and very capable too.

It’s a good goal to shoot for - once you have your private, the high performance and complex endorsements go very quickly.

Tell your instructor you plan to get those, an d he/ she can start incorporating the mnemonics for gear and prop into your training ahead of time.

Also that airplane goes best with an instrument rating, to get the most out of it. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 07/28/2018 at 11:11

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I knew someone would bring that up! When I first heard that, I was concerned. Then I found out most of those crashes were caused by pilot error. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 11:15

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Good advice. The school has a Baron, so they can instruct on complex, high-performance, and multi. Lo ng-term goal is an instrument rating so I’m not so limited by weather. With most of our extended family 10-12 hours away by car, I’m hoping I can make it somewhat easier to travel.

f86sabre > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 11:46

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The Bonanza is lovely and best of luck with your ambitions. You are in for some great fun.

Now, when you want to talk about beautiful GA planes...

MrDakka > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 11:46

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So is the necessary license more advanced than a private pilot license? I was mulling over whether I sh ould get a sports pilot license and was looking at the various types of licenses.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 11:59

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I love it. Growing up my dad had a 1969 V35A (N7069N), that’s what I learned to fly in. Great plane, lots of great memories. Still a favorite.

It would be expensive to rent one to learn in, but there is no prohibition to learning in anything you want to. Your inst ructor would give you a high performance and complex endorsement before solo and you’d be off. I’d much rather teach someone in something simpler, but there is no legal reason you can’t. I did.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 12:02

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Caused by wealthy men who could afford an airplane but couldn’t afford the time to learn to fly.

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 07/28/2018 at 12:04

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Ooh, look what I took a picture of last year.

TheRealBicycleBuck > MrDakka 07/28/2018 at 12:31

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Certificates and ratings are funny things. There’s not much difference between the number of hours and cost between the sport pilot certificate and private pilot certificate. There is, however, a big difference in what you are allowed to do. Type ratings also vary in requirements. High-performance and complex require time with an instructor in the aircraft you want to fly. The amount of time isn’t defined. Once the instructor is comfortable with your performance, the instructor will sign your log book and you are good to go. Other ratings like seaplane have specific requirements.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 07/28/2018 at 12:31

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OOOOO!!!! I didn’t know that!!!

WilliamsSW > f86sabre 07/28/2018 at 12:33

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There were about 2 dozen of these parked together at Airventure. Gorgeous airplanes. Pic s later.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 12:38

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The airplane is capable enough that you can get into trouble quickly if you are inexperienced and don’t respect it.

Much like any other high performance retractable single, really. 

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 12:42

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The high performance endorsement isn’t much more than a check out in a new airplane. I got mine in a 182, it was just a few hours. I never got a complex sign-off, but it’s not much more than that - and you’d find the right airplane and do both together anyways.

Instrument ticket is another matter - that took me as long as my private did, IIRC. But VERY well worth it. Makes you a better and safer pilot.

What aircraft are you learning in?

PyramidHat > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 13:05

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There’s one for rent at my club and the min hours required is 350. That may be on the conservative side but for personal safety I’d rather wait a bit and gather hours with basic flying.

What you training in?  I have 66 hours, mostly in a Cherokee/Warrior.  I need to tie the written and polish my crosswind landings before I get my check ride. 

f86sabre > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 13:18

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We brought my uncle’s into Oshkosh about 20 years ago.  Parked in antique classic. Lots of fun!

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 13:18

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Hell man, you could go buy a decommissioned 2 seat fighter and get your primary training in that. It would be dumb, but you could do it. 

WilliamsSW > f86sabre 07/28/2018 at 13:28

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Nice! And yeah, that’s where they were lined up. About 3- 4 rows of them next to the flight line.

They’re beautiful airplanes. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 13:36

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I haven’t decided yet. I know that sounds kinda strange, but it’s a matter of whether I buy or rent or borrow. A friend of mine has a Tri-Pacer. He’s talked about selling it to me or letting me borrow it. If that doesn’t pan out, I can either buy a plane and save some cash on rentals (spend money to save money - works for my wife) or I can just rent. If I end up renting, we will start off in a 150 or 172.

Right now I’m focusing on ground school. I don’t have enough hours in the week to do both at the same time.

TheRealBicycleBuck > PyramidHat 07/28/2018 at 13:39

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I haven’t started flight yet. There aren’t enough hours in the week for me to do both at the same time, so I’m focusing on ground school first. If I don’t end up with a plane I buy or borrow, I’ll probably end up in a 150 or 172 to start.

RacinBob > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 13:58

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or the tail ripping off......

RacinBob > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 14:04

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How about one of these for starters? You can get one for less than $20k......

And its a Grummen.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/october/pilot/budget-buy-grumman-aa1b

https://www.barnstormers.com/Grumman,%20AA-1+Yankee%20Classifieds.htm

TheRealBicycleBuck > RacinBob 07/28/2018 at 14:34

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Which was attributed to pilots exceeding the maximum speed, in other words,  pilot error. Besides, there was an FAA airworthiness directive which required placards clearly indicating the not-to-exceed speed; an inspection of the tail; and upgrades to the tail when necessary.

RacinBob > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 14:36

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Yep, don’t disagree. I think the early ones had a weaker tail design. What do yo u think of the Grumman?

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 14:39

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The classic VFR into IMC, followed by a loss of control and spiral dive into the ground. Whether or not the tail comes off beforehand only affects the size of the debris field. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > RacinBob 07/28/2018 at 14:45

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If I’m buying, I’ll look for something I won’t have to sell in a year. I want a four-seater with a useful payload. I might end up with a Cherokee or maybe a Musketeer. If my wife doesn’t see the usefulness of having a plan, she might not be as supportive as she is now.

TheRealBicycleBuck > RacinBob 07/28/2018 at 14:48

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See my longer reply to the Grumman post. In short, too small.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 14:55

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I generally don’t recommend buying an airplane before you get your license - one of 3 things will happen. Either you don’t finish your training (or finish but find it useless), or you want to keep moving up to high performance/complex/IFR aircraft, or you’re happy enjoying what you learned in. 2/3 of those scenarios will result in getting rid of the airplane quickly.

That said, a Tri-Pacer could be a good, cheap, trainer. I know we talk about getting a PPI when buying a used car but that’s an absolute MUST with an airplane. A VFR Tri-Pacer with 1000 hours left on the engine could easily be worth double what one with 100 hours left is worth- and you WILL be spending the extra $ on that 2nd airplane in short order.

I think you’d really have to crank through the number honestly (including annual inspection and a reserve for engine overhaul, maintenance, storage, etc etc ) to see if that makes sense - and be honest, you’ll want to trade that airplane shortly after you get your license. You can’t get your high-performance/complex endorsements in it, and probably can’t get your instrument ticket in it, either- so you’ll be back to renting again.

The 150 is nice - as long as neither you nor your instructor are bigger than average. My stepbrother is 6' 2" and maybe 210 and learned in a 150 , and he swears that the airplane was over gross at takeoff for every lesson he had. Besides that, it’s just cramped. I learned in 172's, and highly recommend them. I’m biased, but I think they teach better stick and rudder skills than the Cherokee/Warrior. The Warrior is easier and more forgiving -and tends to just mush when you stall it. You basically have to give the elevator an extra tug at the end to get it to break. Still a very nice airplane though - I recommend flying it *after* you get your license.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 14:59

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The Tiger was an outgrowth of the Yankee, with 4 seats.  Not as common as Pipers or Cessnas, but they’re nice airplanes, and perform pretty well, too.  

RacinBob > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 15:01

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Understood, I have an acquaintance who is considering one. Neat planes but not particularly practical in range or capacity.     

CaptDale - is secretly British > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 15:07

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I really want to fly and own a Cessna 441 Conquest II

To me it is a B-e-a-utiful plane and I have a thing for turboprops. Just the right place in time for props and turbines. But i haven’t even started flying lessons yet, so I am quite sure it’ll take a long time to get there.

Let alone owning a $1.5 million + plane.....

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 15:10

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I’m thinking I’ll wait until I get my student pilot certificate. I’d like to try doing my weekly commute to Houston by air instead of ground. I’m not sure anyone will let me rent a plane just to have it sitting at a different airport for five days until I fly it back.

I hear you on the instructor. The ground school instructor must weigh 350 lbs by himself. I’m glad he’s not the flight instructor!

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 15:11

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I’ll add it to the list. I have a lot to learn....

TheRealBicycleBuck > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/28/2018 at 15:14

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Dream big or go home! I wonder what the operating costs per hour are on that plane. Ouch. 75 gph, but at 300 kts. That’s $300/hr not counting maintenance costs. Better get your commercial and hire out for passengers!

CaptDale - is secretly British > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 15:21

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That or have it as my company plane and write it off in taxes?

TheRealBicycleBuck > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/28/2018 at 15:31

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Still requires a commercial certificate if you want to fly it. But it sounds like a reasonable plan.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 15:50

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Ha there about a thousand other choices, too.  I just came back from 2 days in Oshkosh and saw just about all of them.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 15:54

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No, no one is going to rent you a plane and leave it sitting at a different airport for 5 days on a regular basis.

Look for a flying club near you - they often have multiple airplanes, instructors, and cheaper rates once you join.  They’ll typically let you take a plane on trips, too.

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 16:32

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Good idea. I found exactly one in my area and it has zero internet presence other than a listing on the AOPA website. I may have to go down to the local airport and start bugging some of the old farts that hang out there! :)

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW 07/28/2018 at 16:33

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I’ve heard about Oshkosh, but I’ve never been there. I did watch some of the woes they were having with so many pilots flying in at the same time.

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 17:13

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I live around Chicago and there are many options for flying clubs. I used to belong to Windy City Flyers, but it’s been way too long since I’ve flown now.

And going to Oshkosh has given me the bug, of course...

WilliamsSW > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/28/2018 at 17:18

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It’s hard to explain everything that’s there - homebuilts, vintage, warbirds, ultralights, helicopters, current military, aerobatics.

Tons of seminars on everything from building your own to flying stories; every aircraft manufacturer is there; parts suppliers, etc etc etc.

If you’re into aviation, you should go at some point.  It’s almost a requirement.

Jayhawk Jake > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/28/2018 at 20:06

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As much as I love Cessna, if you’re going to buy a twin turbo prop don’t fuck around and just buy the King

It’s so good that Cessna had to buy Beech craft just to compete in the market

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > RacinBob 07/29/2018 at 08:05

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I bought a Yankee years ago to build time in . GREAT plane. I had previously owned a 150, and the Yankee killed it in terms of fun for basically the same purchase price, maintenance, insurance, and fuel costs. I could fly it around with the canopy open, great visibility, and very responsive to the controls. Just like the 150 when I was done putting a few hundred hours on it I sold it for more than I had into it and went on with my life. These small simple singles hold their value and in many cases go up.

If you want a more practical plane look into a Traveller or Tiger, basically the same plane stretched to give it more seats and a bigger engine. It’s a great design, tough, simple, cheap, fast and fun. Every now and then I toy with buying another plane and the Grummans are always at the top of my list.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Jayhawk Jake 07/30/2018 at 11:35

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That isn’t bad, but if I had to buy a Beechcraft twin Turboprop it would be the Starship

Jayhawk Jake > CaptDale - is secretly British 07/30/2018 at 14:46

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I mean, if you want a mediocre airplane that’s impossible to maintain...

CaptDale - is secretly British > Jayhawk Jake 07/30/2018 at 15:14

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I know I know, but they are cool.